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THEMA: HWD CRASH problemm - How to insulate TurnOut?
THEMA: HWD CRASH problemm - How to insulate TurnOut?
Vadim - 30.09.09 13:37
Topic:
HWD CRASH problemm - How to insulate TurnOut?
EXPLANATION:
It is well known fact that Turnouts of almost all manufacturers have small length of adjacent way,
so that, if we insulate turnout itself from adjacent block section with train, other mooving train, passing through turnout, can mechanically hurt this train even it's resistor's wheels belong to separate insulated block and occupancy detector will report that turnout is free and as a result - incoming green light... but crash!!!
Questions:
1)
As i believe, for right operation of whole layout and program we must solder to both turnout's adjacent ways short parts of track, and just after that we attach insulated block section through insulated rail joiner. The length of this short parts of rail must be choosen so that both trains, belongin to adjaceent insulated block sections cannot mechanically prevent for mooving other trains. It's a HWD dimension rule!
Is it Right?
2) All turnout must electrically belong to incoming and outtgoing ways of station ,but station ways must be fully insulated from both ends, taking into account upper described HWD dimension rule .
3) All length of each insulated block section on station ways or adjasent ways (with Turnout's length) must be longer than the longest train. (in aim for correct operation of authomatic braking )
Is this formulations Right?
----
Vadim
HWD CRASH problemm - How to insulate TurnOut?
EXPLANATION:
It is well known fact that Turnouts of almost all manufacturers have small length of adjacent way,
so that, if we insulate turnout itself from adjacent block section with train, other mooving train, passing through turnout, can mechanically hurt this train even it's resistor's wheels belong to separate insulated block and occupancy detector will report that turnout is free and as a result - incoming green light... but crash!!!
Questions:
1)
As i believe, for right operation of whole layout and program we must solder to both turnout's adjacent ways short parts of track, and just after that we attach insulated block section through insulated rail joiner. The length of this short parts of rail must be choosen so that both trains, belongin to adjaceent insulated block sections cannot mechanically prevent for mooving other trains. It's a HWD dimension rule!
Is it Right?
2) All turnout must electrically belong to incoming and outtgoing ways of station ,but station ways must be fully insulated from both ends, taking into account upper described HWD dimension rule .
3) All length of each insulated block section on station ways or adjasent ways (with Turnout's length) must be longer than the longest train. (in aim for correct operation of authomatic braking )
Is this formulations Right?
----
Vadim
EpocheIV-Fan - 30.09.09 13:40
Was sollen solche Thread-Bezeichnungen ???
HWD = Dimensions = Height-Width-Depth (Abmessungen)
Hi Vladim,
to item 1):
If you really want to be on the safe side, your formulation is correct.
While planning my layout, I was thinking about this issue, too. But I decided to not follow this design rule, because the probability of such a crash is quite low for my design: For my design this only can happen if I run a train which is too long or if one or more waggons disconnect from the train/loco and come to halt without the resistor axis of the last wagen on the turnout, but the last wagon mechanically in the way of a train passing the turnout. Of course, somehow probable, but not quite likely. Therefore I skipped this design rule.
Item 2): Seems correct to me
Item 3): I don't know.
Regards,
Udo.
to item 1):
If you really want to be on the safe side, your formulation is correct.
While planning my layout, I was thinking about this issue, too. But I decided to not follow this design rule, because the probability of such a crash is quite low for my design: For my design this only can happen if I run a train which is too long or if one or more waggons disconnect from the train/loco and come to halt without the resistor axis of the last wagen on the turnout, but the last wagon mechanically in the way of a train passing the turnout. Of course, somehow probable, but not quite likely. Therefore I skipped this design rule.
Item 2): Seems correct to me
Item 3): I don't know.
Regards,
Udo.
Thanks, Udo!
As to me, i m from Russia, and there are no people, who knows somethat about approaches to DCC...
---
Vadim.
As to me, i m from Russia, and there are no people, who knows somethat about approaches to DCC...
---
Vadim.
Hi,
some thoughts about this.
1. What about installing an occupancy detector into the support wire that feeds the frog and the switch blades? Peco electrofrog must be insulated and fed anyway.
2. What about treating a turnout itself as a dedicated occupancy block?
Sdrástwuj, Peter W.
some thoughts about this.
1. What about installing an occupancy detector into the support wire that feeds the frog and the switch blades? Peco electrofrog must be insulated and fed anyway.
2. What about treating a turnout itself as a dedicated occupancy block?
Sdrástwuj, Peter W.
Klaus Lübbe - 01.10.09 00:01
There is one more (mechanical) solution, if you want to be on safe side.
You can use derailing points (Schutzweichen) so that the train on the side track can not run into the main track. This technique was often used in the last decades by the railways but nowadays they believe in electronic solutions.
Doswidanija
Klaus
You can use derailing points (Schutzweichen) so that the train on the side track can not run into the main track. This technique was often used in the last decades by the railways but nowadays they believe in electronic solutions.
Doswidanija
Klaus
Thanks to all!
-Derailment points will require additional turnout mechanisms and buyind cutching turnouts (Peco), and will safe only from uncoupled cars on slope stations. it seems more complicated for layout construction. I mean implementing of HVD rule - will be enough!
Occupancy detector for turnout itself? I also thought about it! - But it will work only for end cars with resistor wheels. And even if it ll works - HVD rule cannot be performed (turnout has short adjacent rails)! In addition - in this case we must equip all wheels of all cars with resistor wheels! - it will require a very poverful CAB!
(usuial resistor R=10k, if we have 100 cars (10 trains with 10 cars) on way all with 4 axles Common R = 10000/400 = 25 om. I = 20V / 25 om =... about 1 A. My cab gives 3A max.
Another reason - i must have a lot of very expencive occupancy detectors. (i plan to use 50 turnouts! at my layout)
In addition, in case of resistor wheels only at last car, another intermediate cars in trains cannot be detected (may be optical sensors??? - but it's too complicated!).
I mean, connections of whole turnouts with HWD rails to adjacent ways block sections - the best and simply solution.
In this case Occupancy detector signal will be directed straightforvardly into turnout relay - in aim to deny any switching (by hand or by program errors) .
-------
Vadim.
-Derailment points will require additional turnout mechanisms and buyind cutching turnouts (Peco), and will safe only from uncoupled cars on slope stations. it seems more complicated for layout construction. I mean implementing of HVD rule - will be enough!
Occupancy detector for turnout itself? I also thought about it! - But it will work only for end cars with resistor wheels. And even if it ll works - HVD rule cannot be performed (turnout has short adjacent rails)! In addition - in this case we must equip all wheels of all cars with resistor wheels! - it will require a very poverful CAB!
(usuial resistor R=10k, if we have 100 cars (10 trains with 10 cars) on way all with 4 axles Common R = 10000/400 = 25 om. I = 20V / 25 om =... about 1 A. My cab gives 3A max.
Another reason - i must have a lot of very expencive occupancy detectors. (i plan to use 50 turnouts! at my layout)
In addition, in case of resistor wheels only at last car, another intermediate cars in trains cannot be detected (may be optical sensors??? - but it's too complicated!).
I mean, connections of whole turnouts with HWD rails to adjacent ways block sections - the best and simply solution.
In this case Occupancy detector signal will be directed straightforvardly into turnout relay - in aim to deny any switching (by hand or by program errors) .
-------
Vadim.
Beitrag editiert am 01. 10. 2009 16:27.
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